Hockey Wars: The Blogosphere vs. Mainstream Media

Steve Dangle
August 20 2014 06:52PM

Screen shot 2014-08-20 at 6.11.08 PM

Guy with bad haircut tries to break down the seemingly never-ending war between the hockey blogosphere and the mainstream media.


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Steve Dangle has a YouTube channel with over 3 million views and is the co-host of the Steve Dangle Podcast on iTunes and SoundCloud. Steve has also worked for CBC, the NHL Network, Leafs TV, Nike, the KHL, and most of all, the Toronto Zoo. stevedangle.com
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#1 Serious Gord
August 20 2014, 10:33PM
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@Quicksilver ballet

Bar mitzvah? Hell, he performed the bris.

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#2 corsi and other stupid analytics hating guy that watches hockey person
August 20 2014, 10:02PM
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pffhhh. Shut up steve. Watch the game for once instead of pulling up your calculator or other stupid analytics crap you bloggers pull up. The game isn't about corsi or analytics and you can't win games with analytics. Obviously you need INTANGIBLES, do I need to spell it out. DUUUHHH!! You need grit and leadership and truculence and ummmmm errrr grit to win games. Analytics are for people who dont watch the game obviously!! Leadership and good mimico boys is what this team is lacking, not more focus on possesion. So instead of the leafs signing very smart and qualified analytics expert, they should trade nazem kadri and jake gardiner for david bolland.

GOOD MIMICOS BOYS!!!!!!!

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#3 Quicksilver ballet
August 20 2014, 09:45PM
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Is it true Jim Matheson went to Jesus Christ's bar mitzvah?

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#4 Don W
August 20 2014, 10:06PM
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Quicksilver ballet wrote:

Is it true Jim Matheson went to Jesus Christ's bar mitzvah?

I wish I could give you more than one prop for that one.

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#5 OiledStatGuy
August 20 2014, 10:04PM
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Maybe Eakins words that analytics aren't be all and end all help bridge gap.

Can someone help me though. What is an example of observation from advanced analytics that Eakins and team will ignore?

Context, we had coaches in past playing a goalie against a team based on record even though opposing team has massive player turnover. Now ...

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#6 Hayek
August 20 2014, 10:10PM
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I think it's interesting how it's so easy to criticize a blogger that is doing a poor job since they generally attempt to do more than report quotes from a game. Yet for members of mainstream media that do a poor job (eg. Mark Spector) they can just attempt to defend themselves saying it's just their persona.

I believe most of mainstream media fall into 2 classes: journalists and reporters. Reporters do nothing else than get quotes and write short quips about a game. Journalists ask questions, and find answers.

It's interesting looking at msm and blogosphere alike, and seeing who is a journalist, and who is a reporter.

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#7 Shredder
August 21 2014, 07:05AM
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I love that kid above with the really bad haircut, he is so cute I would eat the corn kernals from his poo.

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#8 Renaud
August 21 2014, 12:35PM
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A-Mc wrote:

That 8 minute clip probably took 273 micro takes. Its a tough gig to deliver something like that all at once, on stage.. in front of thousands!

Grow up and go cheer the Habs.

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#9 Rocket
August 20 2014, 09:56PM
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@ Dangle

So how did you like The Hangover 3?

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#10 leafdreamer
August 21 2014, 01:52PM
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Harry wrote:

"When anyone scored we all felt like we all scored. We were such an unselfish group."

The Great One

The current Oilers need this lesson more than a 2C or a #1 Dman. The tallent is there to suprise people

So do the current Maple Leafs. Imagine where we'd be if Grabo, McArthur, Gardiner, Reimer, Kadri etc. were willing to play their role and put the team first.

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#12 Prash Naikwadi
August 20 2014, 07:40PM
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Well said, Steve!

More conversation and discussion on all things sports is great!

It does bode well for both parties (bloggers and mainstream) to be respectful of each other.

I think in the end, we're all trying to create buzz and debate, and storylines, and just making points about what we believe in.

Collaboration and tolerance and understanding, would be nice to have.

But at the end of the day, people are people. Hopefully cooler heads prevail.

I do applaud your attempt to "bridge" a gap between these two worlds. I think it's the best way to approach this issue. :-)

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#13 Archaeologuy
August 20 2014, 09:13PM
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I couldn't speak Spanish before I watched this video. Y, ahora, yo hablo español muy bien.

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#14 Harry
August 21 2014, 01:30AM
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"When anyone scored we all felt like we all scored. We were such an unselfish group."

The Great One

The current Oilers need this lesson more than a 2C or a #1 Dman. The tallent is there to suprise people

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#15 Henry
August 21 2014, 06:33AM
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Wow. I woke up this morning and acquired a new hero. Nice piece Mr. Dangle.

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#16 CMpuck
August 21 2014, 09:49AM
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Enough of these, Jeffler was block by Bozak on twitter (who cares?), blogger flame wars....

Lieweke may be leaving the Leafs, maybe that's news worthy?

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#17 Oiler Al
August 21 2014, 11:44AM
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Serious Gord wrote:

Bar mitzvah? Hell, he performed the bris.

Heck, I think he turned the water to wine.!

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#18 Oiler Al
August 21 2014, 02:10PM
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Oiler Al wrote:

These Analytics are annoying, Take away the "Y" and you got Anal Tics, which is probably why the Leafs have been scratching their arses for 47 years.

Just for the record, I am the real Oiler Al. The post @ #34 is not my post.

Even though it was kinda of a funny line.

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#19 Shredder
August 20 2014, 11:01PM
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Awesome video!!! One perspective to consider though is that all the opinions here and in mainstream or of the bloggers don't really matter...we're arguing over what a consensus opinion is of what is going on in the hockey world...what matters is the actual playing of the game...which we have no impact on at all...except in EA sports NHL. Awesome video though.

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#20 knee deep in it
August 20 2014, 11:03PM
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Excellent video.

I can see why some MSM are threatened by young bloggers but it will force them to improve their work. If they don't , these kids will take their jobs.

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#22 Gumby
August 21 2014, 01:33PM
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@Gumby

I know you want to be the real Gumby, but you just can't.

I'm Blue.

Da Ba De Da Ba Di.....

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#23 They're $hittie
August 21 2014, 06:18AM
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With all do respect to the journalists that write for this site, it is more the newspaper writers than the mainstream media as a whole that are involved in the war.

Disclaimer *I do not make these statements about the ones for this site as I do not believe these statements are reflective of them. I am not an analytics advocate, but see value in making use of them as a tool.

Their medium is dwindling and maybe even dying. This is causing fear in them and their inability to adapt to changing times is what creates their close mindedness. They see the new age of blogging as a slap in the face to the profession that they have worked at for years. They are feeling slighted that amateur writers with some math skills are being hired for jobs within organizations they could only dream of. We could all feel the same way too if we were in similar positions.

However, these are suppose to be professionals, representing professional companies. Yes even the Sun is a professional company though there writing is that of a grade 4 level. So in their own fear and close mindedness, these writers that are taking an offensive on the analytic community are looking like pompous a$$es. Their inability to change is also reflective in their views of hockey and to accept the way in which the NHL is going and further trying to move to. In that I mean no more Brian Burke Hockey.

To each their own, but as a professional please try to represent your company as well as your self. Your one sides views, and not being open minded only will only contribute to your mediums eventual death.

Thanks you to all the Journalist that write for this site. Your articles are appreciated and are a great contribution to the discussion of hockey in our city.

As for the other ones I am talking about (Steve S and company) do some research and form opinions with something to back them up, present them in a well stated case, other than spurting your mouth off on twitter!

Wow. Needed to say that.

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#24 Gumby
August 21 2014, 07:14AM
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@Steve Dangle

I think you hit the "mainstream" initial reaction right on the head, not many bloggers presented their ideas in a respectful way. That's probably where the initial anger towards it came from. It felt like more of an attack than "hey look at this new information" .

Only other thing, I'd consider myself "mainstream" or whatever, even though I read a lot about analytics I'm not by any means part of the movement. And I'm probably the same age as you

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#25 Gumby
August 21 2014, 07:15AM
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Steve Dangle wrote:

Tell your wife I'm sorry.

Phrasing.

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#26 Zarny
August 21 2014, 08:59AM
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There is a war between bloggers and MSM?

Hmmm...didn't notice. Probably because I don't care.

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#27 Spydyr
August 21 2014, 09:59AM
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"Holy crap do we need the games to start."

Best line in the whole video.

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#28 oil4life
August 21 2014, 10:20AM
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Burn baby burn... yeah

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#29 Renaud
August 21 2014, 10:53AM
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You're awesome.

Signed by an avid EOTP fan.

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#30 A-Mc
August 21 2014, 12:11PM
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Oiler Al wrote:

Dangle, I think there is career there for you in Stand Up Comedy!

That 8 minute clip probably took 273 micro takes. Its a tough gig to deliver something like that all at once, on stage.. in front of thousands!

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#31 Gumby
August 21 2014, 12:11PM
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Shredder wrote:

I love that kid above with the really bad haircut, he is so cute I would eat the corn kernals from his poo.

I agree Totally-Amundo!!

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#32 Gumby
August 21 2014, 12:12PM
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Shredder is right, that kid drives me wild.

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#33 Oiler Al
August 21 2014, 12:15PM
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These Analytics are annoying, Take away the "Y" and you got Anal Tics, which is probably why the Leafs have been scratching their arses for 47 years.

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#34 Gumby
August 21 2014, 01:34PM
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@A-Mc

Don't fall in the idiot troll's traps, sir.

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#35 Oiler Al
August 21 2014, 05:30PM
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Oiler Al wrote:

Just for the record, I am the real Oiler Al. The post @ #34 is not my post.

Even though it was kinda of a funny line.

Er, I think!!

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#36 BrewGuy
August 23 2014, 12:16PM
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Another thought:

Bloggers are, in general, not required to follow the same code of conduct that the general media has to. I'm forced to wonder if the way some bloggers communicate could be the problem.

Take guys like @mlse and @felixpotvin on Twitter. Both very knowledgable guys, both big Leaf fans, both very good writers, but both also will have no issue ridiculing those that they deem stupid on Twitter (whether they're right or not).

I'd argue that, for better or worse, you'd never see a mainstream media person say some of the things bloggers do (unless they're extremely upset, and even then when it happens they get in a bunch of trouble). Meanwhile, bloggers don't have this problem at all.

Perhaps the fact that it's not, strictly speaking, a level communication field that's part of the problem? Just a theory.

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#38 Neil B
August 20 2014, 10:26PM
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I don't know, Steve, I'd have to disagree with you on a couple points.

1. It wasn't the quality of your insight that got me watching. It was your good humour when you were a guest-mod on the old CBC live chat. After watching a few of your videos, I did get curious about some of the fancy stats stuff you sometimes mentioned, and started looking into it. And then some more. Because my brain is fascinated by small, shiny objects, and fancy stats are small shinny objects. (See what I did there?)

And now my wife hates you.

2. That's not a really bad haircut. if your head wasn't roughly symmetrical, or had big, visible scars, it might be bad. But on you, it's not bad.

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#39 nonikhanna
August 21 2014, 02:45AM
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You haircut is distracting me from the video...

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#40 BrewGuy
August 21 2014, 06:28AM
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Great video, some really good points.

Question: What role do you think journalistic credentials play in this whole thing? By that, I mean the guys and gals who work in 'mainstream' are (probably) holders of journalistic degrees of some sort - at least, that is the assumption most people will make. Now, A lot of bloggers have excellent credentials and journalism degrees as well, but as you said in your video, the initial assumption is that they don't. In essence, this sets up a scenario where the blogger has to prove themselves to the audience, while the 'mainstreamer' does not.

Now, this isn't to say a person without a journalism degree can't write great things - of course they can, and they have on countless occasions. I'd also imagine that a degree in journalism nowadays is a very different beast from a degree from, say, 20 years ago. I'm just wondering where those credentials fit into this discussion. I also wonder if this is a point of contention for the folks working for big media outlets - perhaps their initial assumption is that bloggers have no journalistic credentials, even though some do, and even if they don't, they're writing great stuff anyway.

I don't really know what the answer to this is, but wanted to put the thought out there.

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#41 Oiler Al
August 21 2014, 12:03PM
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Dangle, I think there is career there for you in Stand Up Comedy!

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#42 A-Mc
August 21 2014, 12:10PM
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As with all things: Some people are good at their job, some people aren't and some of them may have been good at one point in the past but are now riding that wave to retirement or death.

The best people get the most attention. Good work is good work.

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#43 Pucker
August 21 2014, 12:42PM
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The season can't start too soon.

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#44 A-Mc
August 21 2014, 12:59PM
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Renaud wrote:

Grow up and go cheer the Habs.

haha, I'm sorry if you take offense to me stating the likely truth. While 273 takes is an exaggeration, its worth a chuckle for those of us who have tried to make videos like this.

Its not easy delivering a message as quickly as is done in the video; it would be infinitely harder to do so on stage, in 1 shot, infront of thousands.

There's no dig here on Steve's work. The video was great.

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#45 backup bob
August 21 2014, 03:28PM
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Oiler Al wrote:

These Analytics are annoying, Take away the "Y" and you got Anal Tics, which is probably why the Leafs have been scratching their arses for 47 years.

? ? ?

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#46 TigerUnderGlass
August 21 2014, 03:48PM
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leafdreamer wrote:

So do the current Maple Leafs. Imagine where we'd be if Grabo, McArthur, Gardiner, Reimer, Kadri etc. were willing to play their role and put the team first.

What?

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#47 TigerUnderGlass
August 21 2014, 03:49PM
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A-Mc wrote:

That 8 minute clip probably took 273 micro takes. Its a tough gig to deliver something like that all at once, on stage.. in front of thousands!

I love the implication that most stand-up comedians perform in front of thousands.

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#48 leafdreamer
August 21 2014, 05:29PM
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Gumby wrote:

I know you want to be the real Gumby, but you just can't.

I'm Blue.

Da Ba De Da Ba Di.....

Sing it stud muffin.

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#49 frty
August 22 2014, 12:50PM
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They're $hittie wrote:

With all do respect to the journalists that write for this site, it is more the newspaper writers than the mainstream media as a whole that are involved in the war.

Disclaimer *I do not make these statements about the ones for this site as I do not believe these statements are reflective of them. I am not an analytics advocate, but see value in making use of them as a tool.

Their medium is dwindling and maybe even dying. This is causing fear in them and their inability to adapt to changing times is what creates their close mindedness. They see the new age of blogging as a slap in the face to the profession that they have worked at for years. They are feeling slighted that amateur writers with some math skills are being hired for jobs within organizations they could only dream of. We could all feel the same way too if we were in similar positions.

However, these are suppose to be professionals, representing professional companies. Yes even the Sun is a professional company though there writing is that of a grade 4 level. So in their own fear and close mindedness, these writers that are taking an offensive on the analytic community are looking like pompous a$$es. Their inability to change is also reflective in their views of hockey and to accept the way in which the NHL is going and further trying to move to. In that I mean no more Brian Burke Hockey.

To each their own, but as a professional please try to represent your company as well as your self. Your one sides views, and not being open minded only will only contribute to your mediums eventual death.

Thanks you to all the Journalist that write for this site. Your articles are appreciated and are a great contribution to the discussion of hockey in our city.

As for the other ones I am talking about (Steve S and company) do some research and form opinions with something to back them up, present them in a well stated case, other than spurting your mouth off on twitter!

Wow. Needed to say that.

i agree but you dont have to slam the sun

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#50 theterminathan
August 22 2014, 02:22PM
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Steve said it best in the podcast when initially the advanced stats community like "hey look at what we're trying to do, let us teach you" into a bunch of hastiness, due to the backlash received.

Advanced stats IMO are basically statistical measures that show why a hockey player or team is doing good where the "Eye Test" before could see it, but not explain it.

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